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Thread: The Ultimate Status Thread 2019!

  1. #11
    The Phoenix Mercs Bonse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    And at that point, we would just be creating a new game....which we are not interested in doing. Hey, if you want to fund the project and pay the source guys to work on it for 6 months straight by all means go ahead, but we're stuck with what we have if not, and things will continue to progress when the source guys feel like working on the game I guess.
    At what point does it not become their engine any more. As far as i was aware you guys are redoing pretty much the entire thing... isn't that essentially the same as just doing the same game but in another engine.

    If you the rip all the center pages out of a book and write your own story in it, it's not the same book is it?

    I understand this is a pointless discussion, was just saying.
    NC1: The Warbots Testis, Massacre** and Keith Chegwin (Saturn - 101st/Phoenix Mercs)
    NC2: Keith Chegwin, Phil Mitchell, Bonse, The Warbots Testis
    NCC: Bonse, BonsePPU, BonseRES etc etc

  2. #12
    Developer / Server Admin Lykos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonse View Post
    At what point does it not become their engine any more. As far as i was aware you guys are redoing pretty much the entire thing... isn't that essentially the same as just doing the same game but in another engine.

    If you the rip all the center pages out of a book and write your own story in it, it's not the same book is it?

    I understand this is a pointless discussion, was just saying.
    Nah this isn't a pointless discussion, it will allow me to enlighten others.

    The engine will always remain the engine. It is a modified Genesis engine. The code around the engine is what the game operates on, and that would be the parts ported to a new engine if we choose to do so. The work already put in would have to be put in again plus a lot more.

    Your example of a book is decent, so imagine we took our book as is, ripped out a few chapters and rewrote them.

    If we moved to a new engine, we would rip out all the pages, put them in a new book with a new index, and have to rewrite each chapter to match the new index. It would end up being better off to rewrite the entire book using the old book as an example. It would end up being a lot more work than taking the original book and rewriting a couple of chapters.

    Most of the chapters in the original book only need some proof reading. Figure NC is a 10 chapter book, we need to rewrite 3 chapters, and proof read the rest, but the chapters are very very long, and only 3 people have the knowledge to rewrite or proofread them.


    If we were looking at this again at the beginning, with fresh eyes and a team that was hyped to do any work on the project, and given the opportunity to do it in a new engine we would probably take the same path we are taking. In the end, it IS less work.... while there is the downside that help is far and few, the help that we have when they take the time to work on the project is great help.

    Honestly? We have been burnt by people joining and leaving right away. We have been burnt by people wanting nothing more than a GM position and claiming to have experience in development but turning out to be liars. We have been burnt by people telling us we are ruining the game, that we are idiots and have no idea what we're doing. We have been burnt by the crybabies in the Discord telling us we're trash because we can produce content faster than source work because they think we're just all shifting to one side or the other of the table.

    We are a team of 3 source developers, 7 content developers. I lead the content team and have the most experience in it, I can do massive amounts of work on my own as the tools and resources needed are available to me, and the other 6 can do just as much work as I can. The 3 source developers are 1 guy who puts in around 6-7 hours a day on source work because it helps him unwind from work, and 2 guys who work on it part time when they are in the mood because they do it for their full time job too and just don't want to keep coding after work. We cannot demand that they work on it anymore than what they do, and we cannot replace them as there is nobody to replace them with. Our content developers have no idea how to do the work our source team is doing, and the most I can do is troubleshoot and fumble my way through why something is not working source wise. I have done RPOS work and other things in NC but when it gets down to the core elements I'm lost. The rest of the content team has ZERO experience in C++\C and cannot even begin to offer assistance.

    There it is for you @Bonse, the full story. The insight into our team and what is going on, and what plagues both teams honestly. NST to my knowledge has one content guy scrambling full time, and one source guy who has backed down to part time.

    Both projects are doomed to failure with source development lacking so hard, but we will keep going until there is nobody left because we do care about the game. That is my plan at least, I can't speak for the rest.
    Noah "Lykos" Wingate-Dolph
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  3. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Lykos For This Useful Post:

    Bonse (05-06-2019),CoreKeeper (04-30-2019),DarkPhoenix (05-01-2019),Swayed (04-30-2019)

  4. #13
    Savage MayhemMike's Avatar
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    Just fix the clipping/warping and we would be straight.

  5. #14
    S.T.O.R.M. Bot Gnisha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MayhemMike View Post
    Just fix the clipping/warping and we would be straight.
    I think that's the definition of netcode.
    Gnisha
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  6. #15
    Runner rookiedoo's Avatar
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    Question

    Thx for the update and roadmap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    Honestly? We have been burnt by people joining and leaving right away.
    Just an idea because I imagine this "joining and leaving" and the trouble caused by this costs quite a lot of time: Isn't there any way to release the NC1 code under GPL? In a public repo players could help developing and "joining and leaving" wouldn't be a problem.

  7. #16
    Developer / Server Admin Lykos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rookiedoo View Post
    Thx for the update and roadmap!



    Just an idea because I imagine this "joining and leaving" and the trouble caused by this costs quite a lot of time: Isn't there any way to release the NC1 code under GPL? In a public repo players could help developing and "joining and leaving" wouldn't be a problem.
    No. We cannot release any of the code as open source because we do not own the original code.

    You are right though, the trouble caused by this costs not only time but money when we have to NDA these people and then they dip out.
    Noah "Lykos" Wingate-Dolph
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  8. #17
    Runner rookiedoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    No. We cannot release any of the code as open source because we do not own the original code.
    Well, shouldn't this (to free the code) be an essential step to achieve a sustainable development on long term?

    Projects like https://www.openra.net/ or https://www.kknd-game.com/ try the same as your team tries with Neocron (keeping "good old games" playable by taking the games back in the hands of the gamers). Even as FLOSS projects these projects already took and will take years to provide playable and stable releases (so even without all the hassle you described related to involving developers).

    Looking on your roadmap it seems not only to be a lot of work but risky as well: In the end KK (or whoever buys KK or what is left of KK) can prohibit the development of NCCC anytime because of the current proprietary source code license. I can imagine that you are aware of this so all my respect in your confidence/faith that this won't happen but I doubt that the amount of people who could help you have the same confidence. For me it would feel a little bit like contributing to Wikipedia if the articles wouldn't be CC-BY-SA but owned by ... don't know, Encyclopaedia Britannica.

  9. #18
    Developer / Server Admin Therenall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rookiedoo View Post
    Well, shouldn't this (to free the code) be an essential step to achieve a sustainable development on long term?

    Projects like https://www.openra.net/ or https://www.kknd-game.com/ try the same as your team tries with Neocron (keeping "good old games" playable by taking the games back in the hands of the gamers). Even as FLOSS projects these projects already took and will take years to provide playable and stable releases (so even without all the hassle you described related to involving developers).

    Looking on your roadmap it seems not only to be a lot of work but risky as well: In the end KK (or whoever buys KK or what is left of KK) can prohibit the development of NCCC anytime because of the current proprietary source code license. I can imagine that you are aware of this so all my respect in your confidence/faith that this won't happen but I doubt that the amount of people who could help you have the same confidence. For me it would feel a little bit like contributing to Wikipedia if the articles wouldn't be CC-BY-SA but owned by ... don't know, Encyclopaedia Britannica.
    It'd be nice to be able to open it up and get outside help, but it's ultimately not our decision, it's Kirks. We're bound by copyright law, it's not ours to release.

    As for your list, I can also add OpenMW which is for Morrowind. These projects are ground-up recreations of the engine and game mechanics, and are open source. However, none of these come with the actual game. OpenRA and OpenMW both require the assets from the original game, and while kknd-game doesn't require you to own the game, it still comes with no assets and only by default downloads assets that were freely available in a free public demo.

    So, in short, we can't open source what we don't own. And re-creating it from the ground up is unrealistic, and given that it's an MMO which would need to have a running server, still a grey area and possibly violating copyright law. Further, frankly, I think you're overestimating the amount of individuals in the community who are both skilled enough and have the interest to maintain working on a project like this, even if it is open source. The community isn't large, and we need programmers. We've invited players who want to help, most of them say they're good for it, then just vanish.

    Kirk hasn't shut the NST down and they've been running since 2012, with 2.2 running since before that on barely even life support, and he hasn't showed any hint of shutting either of us down since NCC started either. So the "I'm not going to work on a project that might get shut down at any time" is a bit moot. People show up, realize that hey, this is actually work, then vanish. \_(ツ)_/
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  10. #19
    Developer / Server Admin Lykos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rookiedoo View Post
    Well, shouldn't this (to free the code) be an essential step to achieve a sustainable development on long term?
    If we purchase rights to Neocron, we could do this. We do NOT own rights to Neocron and CANNOT release it as open source like EVERYBODY is thinking we can. Last time we checked rumor was rights to NC was around 10 mil. Do you have 10 million dollars? I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by rookiedoo View Post
    Projects like https://www.openra.net/ or https://www.kknd-game.com/ try the same as your team tries with Neocron (keeping "good old games" playable by taking the games back in the hands of the gamers). Even as FLOSS projects these projects already took and will take years to provide playable and stable releases (so even without all the hassle you described related to involving developers).
    Good for them? Not sure what the point is here....

    Quote Originally Posted by rookiedoo View Post
    Looking on your roadmap it seems not only to be a lot of work but risky as well: In the end KK (or whoever buys KK or what is left of KK) can prohibit the development of NCCC anytime because of the current proprietary source code license. I can imagine that you are aware of this so all my respect in your confidence/faith that this won't happen but I doubt that the amount of people who could help you have the same confidence. For me it would feel a little bit like contributing to Wikipedia if the articles wouldn't be CC-BY-SA but owned by ... don't know, Encyclopaedia Britannica.
    In the end, KK does not own Neocron. KK has no ownership of the Neocron IP and there for cannot shut us down. Also, are you aware of the current state of KK? They are just fine moving along developing games. Kirk bought NC before the banks took apart KK and left with it. NuKKlear owns Neocron, not ReaKKtor. Not sure why they both took the KK name but....whatever.

    First, for people to have confidence in the project they need to quit hearing the lies. Here is the long story short:


    1. Kirk owns the rights to Neocron.
    2. Kirk is not Reakktor.
    3. Kirk is Nukklear and is not going anywhere.
    4. Kirk is currently working on Neocron 3
    5. Kirk has no intention on shutting us down, or shutting down the NST.
    6. We will continue to develop until we decide we are done.
    7. We are no threat to Kirk and Neocron 3, as we are a small group of developers donating our time, not a large scale development company.
    8. We do not own Neocron
    9. We do not own Neocron code
    10. We do not own the Neocron engine
    11. We cannot release Neocron as Open Source under our agreement with Kirk
    12. We cannot change engines under our agreement with Kirk
    13. The only things we own are the tools we develop for use on Neocron resources
    14. We will never open source our tools as it would be a security nightmare for cheating



    I seriously hope this answers your questions. The answer is "No. Neocron will never be open source"

    Thanks.
    Noah "Lykos" Wingate-Dolph
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  11. #20
    Runner rookiedoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therenall View Post
    It'd be nice to be able to open it up and get outside help, but it's ultimately not our decision, it's Kirks. We're bound by copyright law, it's not ours to release.
    Sure, I didn't want to question that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therenall View Post
    As for your list, I can also add OpenMW which is for Morrowind.
    Thx, didn't know this project!

    Quote Originally Posted by Therenall View Post
    These projects are ground-up recreations of the engine and game mechanics, and are open source. However, none of these come with the actual game. OpenRA and OpenMW both require the assets from the original game, and while kknd-game doesn't require you to own the game, it still comes with no assets and only by default downloads assets that were freely available in a free public demo.
    Well, at least for OpenRA I'm quite sure that you don't need the assets from the original game (just if you want to have the original soundtrack while playing).

    Quote Originally Posted by Therenall View Post
    So, in short, we can't open source what we don't own. And re-creating it from the ground up is unrealistic, and given that it's an MMO which would need to have a running server, still a grey area and possibly violating copyright law.
    Running a server for a FLOSS MMO would be a grey area? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Therenall View Post
    Further, frankly, I think you're overestimating the amount of individuals in the community who are both skilled enough and have the interest to maintain working on a project like this, even if it is open source.
    I'm not a programmer but there is much in software projects users can contribute even without having coding skills. For example: NC1 had a lot ot missing content like missing item descriptions. You don't need to know how to code to provide an item description or fix typos. And this is a kind of work which costs a lot of valuable time for programmers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    If we purchase rights to Neocron, we could do this. We do NOT own rights to Neocron and CANNOT release it as open source like EVERYBODY is thinking we can. Last time we checked rumor was rights to NC was around 10 mil. Do you have 10 million dollars? I don't.
    Me neither but I promise to provide you the money if I would have accidently enough one day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    Good for them? Not sure what the point is here....
    Sorry, my point was: I think the projects wouldn't exist anymore if they were not started as FLOSS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    In the end, KK does not own Neocron. KK has no ownership of the Neocron IP and there for cannot shut us down. Also, are you aware of the current state of KK? They are just fine moving along developing games. Kirk bought NC before the banks took apart KK and left with it. NuKKlear owns Neocron, not ReaKKtor. Not sure why they both took the KK name but....whatever.

    First, for people to have confidence in the project they need to quit hearing the lies. Here is the long story short:


    1. Kirk owns the rights to Neocron.
    2. Kirk is not Reakktor.
    3. Kirk is Nukklear and is not going anywhere.
    4. Kirk is currently working on Neocron 3
    5. Kirk has no intention on shutting us down, or shutting down the NST.
    6. We will continue to develop until we decide we are done.
    7. We are no threat to Kirk and Neocron 3, as we are a small group of developers donating our time, not a large scale development company.
    8. We do not own Neocron
    9. We do not own Neocron code
    10. We do not own the Neocron engine
    11. We cannot release Neocron as Open Source under our agreement with Kirk
    12. We cannot change engines under our agreement with Kirk
    13. The only things we own are the tools we develop for use on Neocron resources
    Thank you very much for this explanation, especially for the NC3 info!

    Just:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    1. We will never open source our tools as it would be a security nightmare for cheating
    This sounds a little bit "security by obscurity" but I think I got your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lykos View Post
    I seriously hope this answers your questions. The answer is "No. Neocron will never be open source"

    Thanks.
    It does, thank you again!

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